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From: Jan Atle Ramsli <trollet@skynet.be>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.beta
Subject: Re: Mjolner 5.2.2, Bravo & praise.
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:11:21 +0200
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Sascha Kimmel wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > I didnt set my expectations skyhigh for this release, since it was
> > described as a 'minor-bugfix' release.
>
> Mjolner always uses understatements ;)

Hehe :-)
I saw there was added 'native database' support, I was almost hoping to see an
improved version of my old PostGreSQL interface, but they had made another one
based on mySQL - I will still insist on PostreSQL as a more 'Beta-minded'
database, it is not only relational, but object-oriented.
If I do some work on the PostgreSQL interface, maybe it will get to the 5.3
release :-)

>
> Well, I`m still using my all-favourite editor HomeSite for that purpose.
> Sounds stupid? It is for sure, but I like HomeSite :)

Well, now is the time to change for sure!
I was able to get mjolner to kick me out, by repeatedly opening and closing
'Object Inspector' in GUI edit mode. Mjolner GUI edit mode does not stand
behind JBuilder's GUI edit mode in any way, on the contrary, we still get only
Motif(R) compliant widgets, so we are guaranteed to only use Motif.
This is a major win when wanting to deploy on various Unix systems - of
course, we need Beta compilers for them, too, hint, hint Bare SigDet,BSD  :-)
And I must say that it is far superior to the Solaris GUI editing tool, and
most of the GNU/Linux GUI editing tools as well.

> A comment on Java:
> How can a programming language be called "object-oriented" if you
> concatenate strings via the "+" sign?
> Oh my god, look at BETA - THAT´S object-oriented :)

Well, Java had to be the way it is, I think it was Bjarne Stroustrup who said
that 'inside C++ there is a smaller and more elegant language struggling to
get out' - and I think the answer was taken to be 'yes, and it's called Java'
- you can only do so much and remain compatible with the C mindset, but the
best part of the C mindset have been preserved by Beta: The desire to kee
verbosity to a minimum.
I need only say one thing about verbosity:
public class JBloatPaneExtender extends JBloatPane implements
JBloatPaneExtenderInterface {
}


> And never forget: it´s completely free!

But I can well imagine two license forms, this is a good idea from Borland and
others: As versions get old, put them into GPL or other free license, to keep
the language alive in the Free Software community.
Always keep a free version like now, but think about creating a 'Professional
Edition' - one that pays the bills. When I start to make money using Beta,
then I would want some of that to get back into the development of Beta itself
- for example: Some people keep Linux versions of software free, because of
Linux' status in the academic world, but have people pay for windows versions.

The way it is now, I would recommend this last way, because the FSF people are
alread in 'negative mode'  because "we  don't get the source, so its not
free".
So, release the source as GPL for, say version 5.1, rename it to
Mjolnzilla(Midgardsormen?) or something - that keeps the GNU community happy,
and it will be up to them to show what they can do with it - they will no
longer be able to say that  'this is not free software' - then make people pay
for Windows-versions, because Windows-people are used to paying anyway, and
nobody uses Windows for his/her own pleasure, I hope?
That is one improvement I could imagine for the license, no reason to keep it
free if you don't get it branded as 'free', and what you no longer need, give
it away completely for the benefit of all, ourselves included. Remember that
only Beta-interested people will be reading the source, and no Beta people
would ever dream of trying to rip off Mjolner in any way whatsoever, I hope?
Any progress would go right back to Mjolner, as soon as it is stable it can be
part of a 'Professional' package.

> > Now that the mjolner tool has become so attractive, this system must
> > conquer the world.
>
> I doubt that.
> The people rather seem to like a language formerly known as "oak" which has
> been pushed with many millions of dollars spent on marketing, events and so
> on Mjolner does not have (I guess ;)

The thing is that Mjolner has the potential of conquering the world all on its
own, like C did, or Linux, or Perl. Until now it has had a relatively high
treshold, that was not related to the language itself.
That treshold will eventually drop way below the one for any competing
languages, Java, C++, Ada or Smalltalk, and from then on a GPLed version will
take on a life of its own, with potentially millions of applications written
in Beta, like the case is for C and Perl.

> I guess it would be a totally different world if Mjolner would have started
> to build its own server hardware and selling simple power cables for 30US$
> ;)

The fact that it can be downloaded off the Net certainly makes it available!
Had it been priced to pay for its own development, I don't think it would have
caught on, there has to be a 1000 users minimum for whom there would be no
alternative language.
Even with a $30 'praline-license' it is still free in the sense 'free beer' -
IBM's VisualAge for OS/2 was priced at $3.500 at one time. I wonder if they
ever sold any?
One guy got an old Cray for free, but the Unix license was over $100.000.- so
the Cray is worthless, just a box of wires and cards with no purpose
whatsoever - the best he can do is give it to Linus (or me :-) so the next
time he gets one, there may be a Linux for it!
If Beta does not conquer the world, a very similar language will, as soon as
the Americans 'invents' it, like they invented OOP with Smalltalk, but that is
over 10 years into the future.
They will probably call it 'agent-oriented' or something like that ....

Atle